What is, and who is Goth?
It strikes me as quite peculiar that at the time of writing and starting this blog (2019) people still don't understand what is, and who is a Goth.
To answer this question I will attempt to be as concise as I can to avoid any common misconceptions, and to ensure the information is as accurate and factual as possible.
In order to understand the question, and its inevitable answer, I need to articulate that this definition is from Ian Ashbury and Andi Sex Gang (Southern Death Cult/ The Cult & Sex Gang Children) who coined and applied the term Goth(s) originally.
It is from the below information that Goth as a subculture and Goth(s) as individuals can be accurately defined.
Ian Astbury/Andi Sex Gang/The NME
In an interview with Dave Thompson and Jo-Anne Green of Alternative Press magazine in November 1994, Ian Astbury, the vocalist in Southern Death Cult, laid claim to having invented the Goth tag:
This would be around late 82/early 83 (when both bands were "coming up") and thus post-dates both Hannett's and Abbo's use of the term "gothic", but is probably the first use of the term "goths" to describe devotees of a certain type of musical style.
Importantly, David Dorrell used to write for the NME...
David Dorrell:
Despite Dorrell's memory lapse, it seems likely that Astbury was right and Dorrell picked up the tag from the description of Andi Sex Gang & co. Further confirmation of this is from an interview with Andi Sex Gang in an article by Gavin Baddeley:
Gothic lore identifies the Sex Gang Children vocalist Andi SexGang as the first Goth, nicknamed "Count Visigoth" because of his flamboyantly dark dress sense, the band's early-80s fans being styled "Goths" by association.
In 1981 Abbo from UK Decay used the term "gothic" to describe the emerging band movement. Then later, probably about 1982, Ian Astbury used the term "goths" to describe Sex Gang Children's fans.
On the surface, there seems to be a clear progression here, with the term gothic/goth being used to describe first individual bands, then a movement of bands, then the followers of that movement.
However, it's not that simple. The term "goth" doesn't seem to have been commonly applied to the movement until some time in 1983, several years after it had originally been used. In early 1983, the most common term for what became the goth movement was "Positive Punk", or later "Posi-Punk", courtesy of Richard North in the NME (February 1983).
Somehow, presumably sometime in 1983, the term seems to have been replaced by "goth".
The first usage of the term "Goths" to describe the members of the subculture which I've been able to uncover is in an article by Tom Vague in the October 1983 re-launch issue of Zig Zag (under Mick Mercer's editorship).
Describing the audience for Death Cult's Berlin show, Tom Vague writes;
What seems to have happened is that the term "gothic" had been floating around, was occasionally used to describe bands, and eventually stuck. Alongside this, the fans of these bands were described as "Goths", probably as a result of comments about Sex Gang Children and their fans.
Source
Further recent confirmation of the story comes again from an interview with Andi Sex Gang with AMFM Magazine (November 2018)
In a later interview with The Cult, singer Ian Astbury told NME journalist David Dorrell the following story (which he also repeated in an interview with Alternative Press in 1994).
Andi Sex Gang went on to reiterate the following;
Andi Sex Gang:
To answer this question I will attempt to be as concise as I can to avoid any common misconceptions, and to ensure the information is as accurate and factual as possible.
In order to understand the question, and its inevitable answer, I need to articulate that this definition is from Ian Ashbury and Andi Sex Gang (Southern Death Cult/ The Cult & Sex Gang Children) who coined and applied the term Goth(s) originally.
It is from the below information that Goth as a subculture and Goth(s) as individuals can be accurately defined.
Ian Astbury/Andi Sex Gang/The NME
In an interview with Dave Thompson and Jo-Anne Green of Alternative Press magazine in November 1994, Ian Astbury, the vocalist in Southern Death Cult, laid claim to having invented the Goth tag:
"The goth tag was a bit of a joke," insists Ian Astbury. "One of the groups coming up at the same time as us was Sex Gang Children, and Andi -- he used to dress like a Banshees fan, and I used to call him the Gothic Goblin because he was a little guy, and he's dark. He used to like Edith Piaf and this macabre music, and he lived in a building in Brixton called Visigoth Towers. So he was the little Gothic Goblin, and his followers were Goths. That's where goth came from."In an article entitled "The Gloom Generation,"by Suzan Colon which appeared in the July 1997 edition of Details Magazine:
"For a lot of people who had been in it a few years before, punk no longer resembled what they had originally intended it to be. Goth gave them a chance to establish another platform that was specifically theirs. This new scene attracted the dispossessed, a lot of punks living on welfare, shoplifting. Many of them lived in Brixton in the early '80s because it was cheap. There was one band called Sex Gang Children who dressed in a very similar fashion to Bauhaus and Specimen. A load of us used to hang out with their singer, Andi Sex Gang. He lived on the top floor of an old Victorian house. We'd go up there for tea, and he'd be in a Chinese robe with black eye makeup on and his hair all done up, playing Edith Piaf albums with fifteen TVs turned on. We had this vision of him as Count Visigoth in his tower, holding court. At the time, Dave Dorrell heard us calling Andi "Count Visigoth" and his followers "goths," so that's what he called everyone in the scene."
This would be around late 82/early 83 (when both bands were "coming up") and thus post-dates both Hannett's and Abbo's use of the term "gothic", but is probably the first use of the term "goths" to describe devotees of a certain type of musical style.
Importantly, David Dorrell used to write for the NME...
David Dorrell:
"Oh, God, it all comes back! I won't even try and make claims that I wrote an article and called them goths or whether I cribbed that off one of my fellow goth journalists -- speed burns my memory. As a journalist, I noticed that the end of punk was starting to get darker. (John) Lydon was getting dark with Public Image Ltd. By committing suicide, Ian Curtis of Joy Division not only put an end to his own life and that of his band, but allowed a vacuum to occur into which all of these other bands scurried."
Despite Dorrell's memory lapse, it seems likely that Astbury was right and Dorrell picked up the tag from the description of Andi Sex Gang & co. Further confirmation of this is from an interview with Andi Sex Gang in an article by Gavin Baddeley:
Gothic lore identifies the Sex Gang Children vocalist Andi SexGang as the first Goth, nicknamed "Count Visigoth" because of his flamboyantly dark dress sense, the band's early-80s fans being styled "Goths" by association.
"It was all unbeknownst to me - they called my place Visigoth Towers behind my back as it were" laughed Andi. "A couple of musicians I knew who lived round the corner - Ian Astbury and Billy Duffy [both in early Goth faves Southern Death Cult] coined the nickname I think, who mentioned it to a music journo called Dave Dorrell who then started bandying the "Goth" tag around. But "Gothic" had already been around for a while to describe various styles of music, especially Joy Division. For me personally the term Gothic refers to something a little more cultivated and classical than the commercial Goth you see about."
In 1981 Abbo from UK Decay used the term "gothic" to describe the emerging band movement. Then later, probably about 1982, Ian Astbury used the term "goths" to describe Sex Gang Children's fans.
On the surface, there seems to be a clear progression here, with the term gothic/goth being used to describe first individual bands, then a movement of bands, then the followers of that movement.
However, it's not that simple. The term "goth" doesn't seem to have been commonly applied to the movement until some time in 1983, several years after it had originally been used. In early 1983, the most common term for what became the goth movement was "Positive Punk", or later "Posi-Punk", courtesy of Richard North in the NME (February 1983).
Somehow, presumably sometime in 1983, the term seems to have been replaced by "goth".
The first usage of the term "Goths" to describe the members of the subculture which I've been able to uncover is in an article by Tom Vague in the October 1983 re-launch issue of Zig Zag (under Mick Mercer's editorship).
Describing the audience for Death Cult's Berlin show, Tom Vague writes;
"...and a pretty motley crew they are too. Hordes of Goths. It could be London..."
What seems to have happened is that the term "gothic" had been floating around, was occasionally used to describe bands, and eventually stuck. Alongside this, the fans of these bands were described as "Goths", probably as a result of comments about Sex Gang Children and their fans.
Source
Further recent confirmation of the story comes again from an interview with Andi Sex Gang with AMFM Magazine (November 2018)
In a later interview with The Cult, singer Ian Astbury told NME journalist David Dorrell the following story (which he also repeated in an interview with Alternative Press in 1994).
“One of the groups coming up at the same time as Southern Death Cult was Sex Gang Children. Andi used to like Édith Piaf and this macabre music. I used to call him the Gothic Goblin because he was a little guy and he’s dark and he lived in a building in Brixton called Visigoth Towers. So he was the little Gothic Goblin and his followers were Goths. That’s where GOTH came from.”
Andi Sex Gang went on to reiterate the following;
Andi Sex Gang:
"The term ‘gothic’ had been used in a music press review to describe the deep, dark feeling of the music on Joy Division’s first album. However, the term Goth had never been used to describe a movement as such, until the mid to late 1980’s. The original term used to describe the new wave of bands from the early 1980’s was ‘Positive Punk’, a term I used in an interview with journalist Richard North. There was definitely something brewing, something new in the air, and in this time of change, what some people now refer to as ‘goth’ was coming into existence."
"However, we played what we considered to be our ‘own’ music, which along with other bands at the time was later termed post-punk. A term that I believe is more fitting and without the limitations of over specified categorisation."
"The press latched onto the term in the mid 1980’s and wouldn’t let go. They needed to hang a new moniker on the movement that was sweeping through the UK at that time and the term ‘Goth’ suited their purpose and a lot of the newer bands coming through alike. When you have a category to describe a new genre, it makes it easier for the music industry and media alike to sell a ‘product’. Products need a brand name. And for bands it becomes easier to sell themselves by adopting an acceptable genre term. For the rest of us, well, we just held our heads in our hands with the realisation that the revolution we had kick-started was now a ‘marketable product’ to be sold like cans of soup/Campbell’s soup/or washing powder."
In an interview with The Original Sin Fanzine in 2010, Andi Sex Gang once again confirms the story as being true.
IAN ASTBURY ONCE TOLD THAT YOU CREATED THE GOTH-IMAGE…
IAN ASTBURY ONCE TOLD THAT YOU CREATED THE GOTH-IMAGE…
JUST A STORY OR IS IT LIKE THAT?
"I normally avoid this question...so I'll be brief.
The story he related is true.. but no one person creates anything solely..and to be honest, I have no real idea to the degree of impact I may or may not have had on the modern Goth scene."
Conclusion:
It would seem quite clear from the first hand information above, that a "Goth" is clearly defined as a FAN or a set of fans (Goth(s)) of Post Punk music. derived by the fact the term was specifically coined for Andi Sex Gang himself as an individual, and his follower's (Fans).
It would seem quite clear from the first hand information above, that a "Goth" is clearly defined as a FAN or a set of fans (Goth(s)) of Post Punk music. derived by the fact the term was specifically coined for Andi Sex Gang himself as an individual, and his follower's (Fans).
This would also came to include the wider Gothic Rock movement / fans around 85/86 partly due the fact the movement had shifted away from Post Punk by then, the Batcave club had shut down and new "goth" clubs were appearing around the UK with the predominant sound being Gothic Rock music.
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